Understanding Clerics
Message #1 le 2011-2-1 @ 0:16:21 par Biz:
Personally, I start to wonder that some people don't understand their classes or the games mechanic when they complain about the clerics DPS.
First-the trouble is in stats. People go overboard for Wisdom-and think Intelligence has nothing they truly need. Couldn't be farther from the truth.
There are 3 key stats for casters: Mana Pool / Spell Power / Spell Crit. The trouble is, Mages get all 3 stats from 1 stat line, clerics have to cross spec stats to be well rounded and get 2 of the 3.
This is true for both healing and dps, but the lack of it will show up heavily if you are low on Intel for DPS.
It is much easier for clerics to AOE DPS than it is to single target DPS.
Here is my sustained 1 min DPS ranges-differentials coming from Misses/# of Crits, etc:
3 Mob:
Inquisitor 51 / Cabal 15: 1100-1450 DPS
Justicar 33 / Shaman 33: 1020-1170 DPS *
Druid 31 / Shaman 26 / Justicar 9: 1080-1220 DPS
1 Mob:
Inq/Cab: 480-535 DPS
Just/Shaman: 380-470 *
Druid/Shaman/Justicar: 420-510
These IMO are respectable for PVE content. I have and can out dps Mages on pulls, but its all relative-and sometimes, those mages are not the "best." Anytime though, I think I can rival them, just as they can rival me in heals with Chloro-but they don't out heal me in Chloro (8-12% difference in favor of me) and I don't expect to out DPS them.
As far as PVP content-the trouble is not that Clerics are UP, its that some classes are OP...namely the Champion/Paragon spec for Warriors. 1 - they can burst enough to outpace any heals we dish out. That just completely makes it where we cannot be effective as healers in PvP content. Thats in a 1v1 situation, make it 2v1, and 2 warriors will drop any target easily.
Now, you factor in Bull Rush with a rediculous 3 meter minimum range (should = more like 10) and it grants a 3 sec stun. They also can get a 5 sec stun. You can be stunned long enough to be dead with no action. Bull Rush has a low CD as well, 3 sec stuns every 15 sec is rediculous.
If you have been stunned, once it comes through-you should not be able to be stunned again for a set amount of time. The fact that you can be chain-stunned is rediculous overpowered.
Second, as casters, there is very little utility you get to escape from Meleers, and anything we can do-they can do. Plus-a warrior has the distinct advantage of wearing a heavier armor that helps them have more HPS and mitigate MORE damage. Now they also have the distinct advantage of carrying the most DPS with no true downside. Root them, they have an escape from that-snare them, they have an escape for that. Fear them...get rdy for Bull Rush.
So we cannot equal or outpace them in heals, we cannot escape them, and we cannot run from them. The trouble is not the issue of the cleric-its the problem that Melee DPS is far more strengthened than the cleric can be. If you allow the clerics to equal their DPS, the game itself becomes completely unbalanced towards a hybrid build.
The same arguments I am told can be made about Rogue melee DPS. I just don't have as much experience testing versus a Rogue as I do the warrior.
Right now- PvE the key issues for Clerics are this:
•AOE heals are too random. Make them party (including pets) or Raid. The minimum ranges should be = to the max range heals. Increasing the range distance only further nerfed any AOE heals that are restricted in range. If its not OP to be cast to anyone in 10-15 meters...ITS NOT OP TO GO TO ANYONE WITHIN STANDARD HEALING RANGE.
•Ripple applies to the above. Right now its broken completely, but again-if it could go to the whole grp within a limited range, its rediculous not to just make it party wide.
•Wards - They simply aren't significant enough and are burned through quickly. Which is why I have dumped Purifier as a healer spec. I would consider carrying a full spec'd Purifier, but IMO-outside of Cauterize, Sentinel is better overall.
•Global Cooldowns on Cast Times: When the cast time exceed the GCD, it causes more problems by the way it triggers. GCD triggers as soon as you begin a cast. So, if you start a cast, and have to move...GCD even though nothing was done. If you start a cast and have to change targets and casts...GCD. When the Cast Time exceeds the GCD, there is no need for the GCD to have to trigger-its already built into the cast time. The fact that GCD can trigger when we begin casts, that only limits the class in an unnecessary way. *I am not saying GCD does not need to exist - ONLY where there is a Cast Time that is equal to or greater than the GCD does it not need to exist.
[hr]
un gars repond apres
Yeah those numbers are realistic, that is about what we all pull.
My warrior can get about 2-3K AE and I've seen Alejo parse for 3-4k.
My warrior in a pvp build sustains 1.2k single target self buffed for a 2 minute fight on a boss dummy. (this jumps to about 2k in a group)
I know Hydd can pull 1k dps single target to on his rogue self buffed on a boss dummy.
Thus you're proving our point, we're literally half the dps of warriors and rogues.
I'd suggest extending your fights to two minutes becuase you're getting a huge jump from Rage of the North which is on a 2 minute cool down thus a 2 minute parse would give you a more realistic number.
As far as the PvP comments go, warriors are amazing at the moment yes. Though, so are rogues, I did a ton of duels with Hydd and he can kill my cleric in full healing spec easily as well if he has the right spec. I haven't had a chance to duel many mages because no one wants to fight.
**also I 'd like to note that a chloromancer can out dps all those numbers you just mentioned while doing enough healing to heal the hardest dungeons** [hr]
un autre gars repond apres
Well, interesting, but I think most of us are aware of how Intelligence and Wisdom work, and I distinctly remember the Devs saying that for Clerics it was 75% Wisdom and 25% Intelligence as an ideal. As stated by Tzigone, those figures were what I was finding, and they are severly below par compared with other callings. But thanks for implying we don't understand our classes
First-the trouble is in stats. People go overboard for Wisdom-and think Intelligence has nothing they truly need. Couldn't be farther from the truth.
There are 3 key stats for casters: Mana Pool / Spell Power / Spell Crit. The trouble is, Mages get all 3 stats from 1 stat line, clerics have to cross spec stats to be well rounded and get 2 of the 3.
This is true for both healing and dps, but the lack of it will show up heavily if you are low on Intel for DPS.
It is much easier for clerics to AOE DPS than it is to single target DPS.
Here is my sustained 1 min DPS ranges-differentials coming from Misses/# of Crits, etc:
3 Mob:
Inquisitor 51 / Cabal 15: 1100-1450 DPS
Justicar 33 / Shaman 33: 1020-1170 DPS *
Druid 31 / Shaman 26 / Justicar 9: 1080-1220 DPS
1 Mob:
Inq/Cab: 480-535 DPS
Just/Shaman: 380-470 *
Druid/Shaman/Justicar: 420-510
These IMO are respectable for PVE content. I have and can out dps Mages on pulls, but its all relative-and sometimes, those mages are not the "best." Anytime though, I think I can rival them, just as they can rival me in heals with Chloro-but they don't out heal me in Chloro (8-12% difference in favor of me) and I don't expect to out DPS them.
As far as PVP content-the trouble is not that Clerics are UP, its that some classes are OP...namely the Champion/Paragon spec for Warriors. 1 - they can burst enough to outpace any heals we dish out. That just completely makes it where we cannot be effective as healers in PvP content. Thats in a 1v1 situation, make it 2v1, and 2 warriors will drop any target easily.
Now, you factor in Bull Rush with a rediculous 3 meter minimum range (should = more like 10) and it grants a 3 sec stun. They also can get a 5 sec stun. You can be stunned long enough to be dead with no action. Bull Rush has a low CD as well, 3 sec stuns every 15 sec is rediculous.
If you have been stunned, once it comes through-you should not be able to be stunned again for a set amount of time. The fact that you can be chain-stunned is rediculous overpowered.
Second, as casters, there is very little utility you get to escape from Meleers, and anything we can do-they can do. Plus-a warrior has the distinct advantage of wearing a heavier armor that helps them have more HPS and mitigate MORE damage. Now they also have the distinct advantage of carrying the most DPS with no true downside. Root them, they have an escape from that-snare them, they have an escape for that. Fear them...get rdy for Bull Rush.
So we cannot equal or outpace them in heals, we cannot escape them, and we cannot run from them. The trouble is not the issue of the cleric-its the problem that Melee DPS is far more strengthened than the cleric can be. If you allow the clerics to equal their DPS, the game itself becomes completely unbalanced towards a hybrid build.
The same arguments I am told can be made about Rogue melee DPS. I just don't have as much experience testing versus a Rogue as I do the warrior.
Right now- PvE the key issues for Clerics are this:
•AOE heals are too random. Make them party (including pets) or Raid. The minimum ranges should be = to the max range heals. Increasing the range distance only further nerfed any AOE heals that are restricted in range. If its not OP to be cast to anyone in 10-15 meters...ITS NOT OP TO GO TO ANYONE WITHIN STANDARD HEALING RANGE.
•Ripple applies to the above. Right now its broken completely, but again-if it could go to the whole grp within a limited range, its rediculous not to just make it party wide.
•Wards - They simply aren't significant enough and are burned through quickly. Which is why I have dumped Purifier as a healer spec. I would consider carrying a full spec'd Purifier, but IMO-outside of Cauterize, Sentinel is better overall.
•Global Cooldowns on Cast Times: When the cast time exceed the GCD, it causes more problems by the way it triggers. GCD triggers as soon as you begin a cast. So, if you start a cast, and have to move...GCD even though nothing was done. If you start a cast and have to change targets and casts...GCD. When the Cast Time exceeds the GCD, there is no need for the GCD to have to trigger-its already built into the cast time. The fact that GCD can trigger when we begin casts, that only limits the class in an unnecessary way. *I am not saying GCD does not need to exist - ONLY where there is a Cast Time that is equal to or greater than the GCD does it not need to exist.
[hr]
un gars repond apres
Yeah those numbers are realistic, that is about what we all pull.
My warrior can get about 2-3K AE and I've seen Alejo parse for 3-4k.
My warrior in a pvp build sustains 1.2k single target self buffed for a 2 minute fight on a boss dummy. (this jumps to about 2k in a group)
I know Hydd can pull 1k dps single target to on his rogue self buffed on a boss dummy.
Thus you're proving our point, we're literally half the dps of warriors and rogues.
I'd suggest extending your fights to two minutes becuase you're getting a huge jump from Rage of the North which is on a 2 minute cool down thus a 2 minute parse would give you a more realistic number.
As far as the PvP comments go, warriors are amazing at the moment yes. Though, so are rogues, I did a ton of duels with Hydd and he can kill my cleric in full healing spec easily as well if he has the right spec. I haven't had a chance to duel many mages because no one wants to fight.
**also I 'd like to note that a chloromancer can out dps all those numbers you just mentioned while doing enough healing to heal the hardest dungeons** [hr]
un autre gars repond apres
Well, interesting, but I think most of us are aware of how Intelligence and Wisdom work, and I distinctly remember the Devs saying that for Clerics it was 75% Wisdom and 25% Intelligence as an ideal. As stated by Tzigone, those figures were what I was finding, and they are severly below par compared with other callings. But thanks for implying we don't understand our classes
Message #2 le 2011-2-1 @ 12:21:43 par Piedplat:
Hmm si les pets font partie des dix personnes dans un heal je me demande s'il faudrait pas exclure les pets d'un groupe à moins que les devs font en sorte que le heal heal le personnage ET son pet pour une seul personne.
Ça serait bien aussi d'avoir le lien de la conversation, pour pouvoir répondre au conversation.
Bon travail Biz. ;)
Ça serait bien aussi d'avoir le lien de la conversation, pour pouvoir répondre au conversation.
Bon travail Biz. ;)
Message #3 le 2011-2-7 @ 10:24:03 par Sundown:
Biz wrote: •Wards - They simply aren't significant enough and are burned through quickly. Which is why I have dumped Purifier as a healer spec. I would consider carrying a full spec'd Purifier, but IMO-outside of Cauterize, Sentinel is better overall.
Tellement vrai ... j'espere qu'ils auront un UP avant la realease car c'est une classe avec du potentiel et un gameplay interessant.